Building Brotherhood & Purpose: Don Palmer and Greg Enas on Citizen 7

In this episode of Risk & Resolve, Ben Conner and Todd Hufford sit down with Don Palmer and Greg Enas, co-founders of Citizen 7, to discuss male friendship, leadership, generosity, mentorship, and building movements instead of organizations. From entrepreneurship and business leadership to faith, community, and legacy, this conversation explores what it means to build men who build others.

Main Talking Points

• How Don Palmer and Greg Enas first met and built a decades-long friendship
• The origins of Citizen Seven and the vision behind it
• Why male loneliness and isolation are growing problems
• The difference between building an organization versus building a movement
• How authentic male friendships are formed shoulder-to-shoulder on mission
• The role of vulnerability, confidentiality, and accountability in friendships
• Why businessmen often struggle to cultivate deep relationships
• The power of “throwing the party” instead of waiting for an invitation
• Building intergenerational friendships and mentorship
• Why curiosity and asking good questions matter in relationships
• Creating opportunities for younger men to lead and carry the baton
• Faith, entrepreneurship, generosity, and civic engagement intersecting together
• How Citizen Seven encourages men to say yes to meaningful action
• The importance of play, fun, and shared experiences in building brotherhood
• Legacy, family, and finishing life well

Transcript

Welcome And Meet The Guests

SPEAKER_03 0:03

We need to do it a lot. And now for your host, Ben Curvey.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Welcome back to another episode of Risk and Resolve. I'm Ben Connor alongside Todd Hufford. And today we do have a special episode because we don't have just one guest, but we have two: Don Palmer and Greg Enis, together with Citizen Seven, but separately. Don owned and operated Palmer Automotive Group for 28 years and currently sits on several boards. Fifth Third Bank of Indiana, Goodwill Industries of Central and Southern Indiana, National Christian Foundation, among others. And Greg is retired from Eli Lilly, but he he just retired to something to other things because he's also serves on a lot of boards and is also a core co-founder of a number of ventures, including Citizen Seven, along with Don, Polk Stables, and the Indianapolis Guild of Redemptive Entrepreneurs Associated with Praxis. Guys, thanks for joining us today. We're really happy to have you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Thanks, and Todd for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Yeah.

How Don And Greg Connected

SPEAKER_00 1:23

And um just to dive right in, um, if you guys wouldn't wouldn't mind, um, if you could tell the story of how you guys met and got introduced, would love to love to have that as a baseline.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

I think Greg is good at telling that story.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yeah, I uh remember clearly being invited to Don's house when he was still an unmarried man. I was unmarried at the time back in the 80s by a mutual friend. And uh my friend told me, who was at the church I was at Agape Fellowship in Indianapolis, that Don was hosting a Bible study at his house. And I went there just not knowing Don or anyone and uh enjoyed uh the Bible study. We really didn't connect there though. I was busy with other things and uh was uh pleased to meet his acquaintance, but we never really connected until many, many years later on when we started to walk in the same circles, understand each other, and develop a love for each other as we both had a heart for ministry, for working in the business world, for loving Indianapolis, for having fun, and uh all sorts of things that ultimately brought us to mentor some kids in the KIF school system in Indianapolis uh together, and that come together and in parallel with some other men that we started meeting with in more deep, authentic relationships really cemented our relationship. And that was over 10 years ago. I'd say Don can correct me if I'm wrong, but 10 or 15 years ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Don, is that a story check? Is that how you remember it? That's about right.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Yeah. Greg and I always had all these mutual friends. Uh a lot of times we didn't uh in our early years didn't collide, but but every time you talk to someone, hey, well, you know, Greg Enos did this, or Greg would say, hey, well, Don Palmer did this. So we were uh we were co-conspirators, we're people kind of the same spirit, um, but I think those were catalysts.

Fruitful Walk And Deep Friendship

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Um we started a group called Fruitful Walk, and we took what uh YPO Young Presence Organization, their concept of a forum, uh which is a group of eight to ten men that meet uh once a month on a very intentional basis with uh an attendance requirement. And it wasn't a Bible study, um, it was really a doing life together. And that was probably 17, 18 years ago, Montreal. Um and stayed, uh we've stayed together in that group, and that's done a lot in from a cadence of friendship. You know, if you and I are great friends, and I'll I'll run into somebody, who's your best friend? Oh, it's Larry. Okay, well, when was the last time you talked to Larry? Well, you know, it's it's been about six months. Like, man, I don't want to be your best friend because uh that's uh not very frequent uh contact. So uh I think that having that regular monthly time together, and we did what they do, uh what they call an update, where you have five minutes to tell your best has happened professionally, what's your worst, what are you looking forward to, and what are you dreading professionally, family, and business? And boy, in five minutes, uh you have eight guys. You and I could be, you know, having a beer or doing whatever, and you didn't know that my wife contracted cancer or my uh you know, child lost their job, or you know, whatever it might be. So it really was very a rich time and was also um a group like YPO that uh you agree to confidentiality. So um if I told you I was sick and you know in the middle of the group, you'd you'd say, How's Don? I don't I I guess he's okay. Um you weren't allowed to talk to your spouse, your kids, kind of shared at proof of walk, stayed at fruitful walk. And so that created a very safe place, both personally and professionally, um, for us to uh kind of uh uh enrich our friendship.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

What what was stirring in your heart that you you guys said, hey, uh, you know, we have this thing like a YPO that we do professionally, but I need this with friends. I need to do this with friends, and this is a necessary part for me going forward. Where did where did that come from?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Well, I've had such an incredibly rich experience in YPO. Um I was in one group for uh 16 years, uh, another now group that I'm currently in for we've just hit our 20th anniversary. So the stickiness to that. But in a uh YPO setting, um, you certainly don't have the faith component necessarily as a as a constant. So to be able to do that within all the guys that we had, we had known each other for many years, um, but sometimes we didn't see each other very often. So I think there was really that need to um, number one, enjoy each other. We didn't really need another Bible study. Um we just wanted to do life together, and that really has worked out well.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Yeah. Um so we'll kind of fast forward to uh what you guys are doing today along the friendship lines.

Why Citizen Seven Started

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Um you guys formed a group called Citizens 7. Um, where where did that idea come from and what was the inspiration behind it?

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Well, I think we felt like the the women in this city were kicking their tails. Um the my sister, uh Barb Tate, and my cousin, who a lot of times people think is my brother, David Palmer's uh wife, Cindy, had started a thing called uh Kaleo. And Kaleo was a giving circle, and they had a hundred women give $100,000, and they got around ministry things, and uh, but they also started a thing called Heart Change, and Heart Change was working with um low-income uh women, mostly uh single moms, uh, and a thing called Mothers University and doing all sorts of things. And Greg and I are looking like, okay, now this is what the women are doing. What are the men doing? Nothing. And we felt like, and maybe we're wrong, but that you know, men, I I heard a statistic that 88% of the people love to go to a party, but only 11% are willing to throw a party. And a lot of the friends that I had, you know, they they're good. Hey, you call them. Yeah, you want to go do something? Yeah, let's do it. But they are not gonna call you. And so we thought, well, we need to do something about that. So we needed to put some structure and process in. We first called it Narnia of Indiana, which kind of meant we didn't want to make it overly spiritual. Susan 7 is a very broad ten, Catholic, Protestant. Um, we have three tenets. One, to deepen male friendships, two, to enrich uh our faith, and three, to love our neighbor well. Um, so that's kind of where it started. We realized, you know, the C. S. Lewis people probably don't like us. Uh we got to be a big deal using Narnia. We better get another name. So uh we had a nephew of mine do a little braining exercise, and we came up with uh Citizen Seven. So that was, I don't even know how many years ago it was. It was very small for a number of years, Greg, maybe six, seven years. Just the last two years, it's absolutely exploded.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Um so um Yeah, we have about 1400 guys on the mailing list, but we're trying to create a an engine down deep where we're going deep now. And uh and it's gonna be small to start, right? Not 1400, but a small cadre of men that really grow deep and authentic. Because we really believe relationships is the key belonging, uh, more covenantal than contractual. You know, in the business world, we have to abide by contracts, and we have to abide by the written rule. Uh, my tendency, and I I see this in Don and others, that are in our smaller cohort is we're trying to abide more by covenant. That we're trying to, because for example, contracts are contracts are out there to prevent conflict. You know, we can we can resolve things and make sure things are spelled out, and we need those, especially in the business world. But we're talking about a world that uh we hope would prevent conflict by having these solid relationships. So I I personally can err more on contract or I'm sorry, on conflict uh prevention, because I by nature avoid conflict. But what we're trying, and especially with men, uh I take too much, maybe on the prevention side, with versus understanding that in relationships we will have conflict. And we don't have contracts to stipulate how that needs to be resolved. It has to be done because we trust and love each other. So that's what we're trying to do at the essence of Citizen Seven is unleash authentic male uh relationships that then can move into business well together, that can move into civic engagement wealth, that can move into our families well where we don't have contracts. You know, I don't have a prena, I don't have one for a reason, right? I you know, not that I'm gonna disregard that, but those kind of relationships are based on something that go beyond a contract. I don't want to set a contract up to limit it or to prescribe it or to set the tone to that relationship. That's what we're trying to do through all that we're about. And we believe that is the love of Jesus that allows that to happen because it's hardboard to have those relationships, and we believe that ultimately is what's gonna change our lives personally, our families, our neighborhoods, our businesses, and the city that we dwell in.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah.

The Male Friendship Problem

SPEAKER_00 12:35

You mentioned your first um pillar was male friendship. What what was what was the what what's the the challenge in male friendship that you guys have seen that you're like, hey, number one pillar is we want to we want to prioritize male friendship.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Um well I one, I think I got a taste of what sharing life deeply was from the YPO forum experience. I knew that there was more to friendships than strictly how about them boilers and how about them hoosiers. Um we need to play, we need to uh have fun together, but we also uh need to go deeper and understand uh what people's dreams are, what people's uh concerns are, et cetera. So I think it was probably um a desire in our own lives to feel like we didn't have that as much as we'd like. Um and I think combining the faith component, um, people you know are all different walks on their faith. It could be just uh exploring the faith, could be just uh have become a new Christian or maybe they've matured. Um so we're all on a journey, and we just thought being able to have people uh have some structure. And you know, our meetings we spend half the time in a small group, and those questions are intended for people to get to know each other better. Uh, so we not only talk about what a speaker talks about, but we also, hey, what was your worst job? Or um what was a spiritual catalyst in your life, or what was the turning point in your career? Well, I might have known Ben forever, but I I never knew anything about, you know, where did you meet your spouse? Where all of a sudden that that level of familiarity um feels more like family than it does more of a stranger. And Don, you go ahead, Greg.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

You know, men form friendships in the heat of battle on mission. And so Don and I, we would have mentored together, for example. We had no clue Citizen Seven might emerge from some of that engine that was being created there. We would have done that regardless of thinking, oh, this is going to turn into something that now is almost 1,500 guys in it, because we were friends. But something beautiful emerged from that friendship because we were on mission together. And I think that's what's so important about male friendships is that we are built and made to create, to build, to make, to lead, to take the arrows. And beautiful things emerge out of brotherly friendships that you can't imagine from the get-go.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

Man, you you were hitting on what I was just gonna mention, uh, Greg, is that I feel like in my deepest male relationships, those those connections are not across a lunch table face to face. They're shoulder to shoulder.

SPEAKER_05 15:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

We're usually both focused on the same object, but it's not each other.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 15:55

And I sometimes tease my wife and I say, Oh, do you have a nice lunch with your girlfriend? And of course, they go do and talk to things. And she says, Yeah, you should go have lunch with so-and-so's husband. And I say, That's not how it works. You know, we have to have a project, we have to have a mission. I mean, certainly we all get together and do lunch, but Don, you you said that this kind of thing that 80% of people would attend a party, but 11% would throw the party. When you think about your life, and Greg, you'll be next up, so think about it. Is there something innate in your family, in your DNA that you learned as a child, as a young adult, that says, I need to be the 11%, I need to be the initiator. Uh, I'm called either by faith or s or status or something else, to it's easy to be the 80%. Just receive the phone call and show up. What is it in your background that that made you the 11%?

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah. Well, I think like you guys, um as an entrepreneur and so wasn't part of a large organization. And if anything was going to happen, you kind of just had to be the person to make it happen, right? I mean, no one's telling maybe you guys to go out and do a sales call or do whatever. So to uh create sales or recruit a good person, you just had to be that person with agency. Um, so I think that that was realizing that I just I needed to to be the person to at least I'm probably not the best person to maintain something, but I think my gifting is I'm a person that can rally the troops, kind of help start the fire, and someone else might maintain it better than myself.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Craig? Yeah, I you know, it's the creative minority. John Tyson, Pastor John Tyson out of City Church in New York, has a really neat little monograph that I encourage people to read that talks about how Jesus led with the 11%. He had crowds of 5,000, but it was those 12 disciples that he poured into. That's not quite 11% from 5,000. I know my math a little bit, but the point is it's a small number, and that's where we need to focus on. Not be worried about the masses or influence. It is being connected with a small group of like-minded brothers, and uh that's what changes the world. You look at world history, it's always been to that creative minority that's willing to take the risk. I love the name of your podcast, Risk and Resolve. I was gonna ask you at the end what where did that come from? Because I don't really know, but I love it. It talks about that risk. Early on, Don was talking about early on, there's high risk. He's one to take the risk, but he's not the one to manage and resolve everything downstream, even though they're going the right direction. That might be a different person, but it takes both of those together. And uh, I I just love that 11% that I've been privileged to walk with Don into. Now, the downside is that maybe on the back end we don't do as good a job as we need because we're we need others, uh, certainly, and we and we need to bring others into that. And that's in fact where we are as Citizen Center. We are trying to move to 2.0 or 3.0, whatever you want to call it, by bringing those who can take the baton from Don and myself and take this and and not just manage it, but steward it well so that it continues to have the impact and influence that we believe it could have.

SPEAKER_04 19:29

Well, build on that. Um, I'm sure, I'm sure you have some identified, but draw a picture of some personalities you're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Well, we have um a great

Beta Events And Serving Your Passion

SPEAKER_02 19:41

thing. So somebody will get together with the boss, they'll come to a meetup and say, Boy, you know, you guys ought to really think about doing something, you know, for the inner city. And we turn it around saying, Now you got that wrong. Says, what? You ought to do that, and how can I help you? Yeah. So the people that uh one guy came to us, he's my name is Kelly, said, I I really uh he was he's the senior member for Salesforce. Said, you know, I really feel like God cares about our quotas and about our job stress and everything else. And I want to do something in honor of God and the daily grind. And instead of us taking that, say, okay, that sounds like a great idea. Let's do it. We look at everything with um Sisland 7 as a beta. And we also say, you know what? If something does not fail, we didn't try enough stuff. Yeah. So that I we've got an event coming up, and there's like four people signed up for it, and there's normally like 80. And we're all kind of sweating it, but inside I'm going, you know, guys, this is sad. So I think um one of the beautiful things about not being an organization, being a movement, is we're looking for what's stirring someone's heart. Yesterday, a guy named A.T. Simpson, who played with the Drew Brees era uh for Purdue as a wide receiver, said, I really feel like he grew up at 38th in Emerson. Um the kids just aren't exposed to uh vocations. And the reason why they might underachieve is because they just never knew that there were they could be a doctor or a lawyer. And uh and he grew up, you know, in in that area. So all of a sudden, you know, said, well, how can we help you? And what what could this look like? Guy named Aaron Story that runs Elevate Indy, uh, had a bunch of kids, felt like you can benefit, and poof, they those two put it together. We may get the credit, but we deserve zero credit because they put together 15 professionals yesterday with. 23 uh inner city high school kids, they had prepared questions. And I mean, you could have kind of run your podcast and my podcast with the quality questions that they had. It's like, whoa. I think they might have used AI. And they, I think the um the teacher mentors helped them with the questions, but it was like, those are pretty good questions. Kind of like, well, how you know, when did you fail and how did that feel? Okay, well, I guess we need to go there, don't we?

SPEAKER_04 22:33

If you think about that though, you you mentioned that it's a movement, and that individual or those individuals could have brought it to their business, either the one they own or the one they're employed by. They could have brought that idea to their church. They could have brought it to a different community organization, but instead they brought it to you at the larger Citizen Seven group. Um, you know, you both were in business, you both made plans and had executed on those plans. I bet some days you feel like you're on a big reed raft out in the middle of the ocean, just you know, wherever the wind and and wave takes you, you just go with it.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Absolutely. But that's kind of exciting, you know. Another, you know, main tenant we have as a core value is uh fun. And I can't people, you know, people say, well, a family that that prays together stays together. And I said, and a family that plays together stays together. And I look at my uh male friendships, and a lot of times we share some kind of whether we like to bicycle or golf, or you know, that that we're we're playing euchre or that we're having some fun in addition to trying to save the world. Uh so in our programming, so we're you know, there's a group that's going to that Savannah Banana thing, the Indiana Clowns or something. I didn't even know what it was. And it sold out like in 48 hours, 100 tickets. It's like wow. So those kinds of things where, and I think season seven, one of the, you know, again, our our mission is kind of uh like kingdom come that will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Well, there's a pretty good gap between the way it is on earth and way good Lord would like us. So that blacks and whites, old and young, I mean, you name it, diversity uh is the richness of what it should be. So, you know, we think that that is a key thing. Uh, so it's not just a bunch of older people or younger people or um, and so that's what we're aspiring to. A good friend of mine, who's a uh church planter, he had a huge goal uh in India, plan 100,000 churches. And he said on his tombstone, is this I'm not sure I'll get there, but I want what I want them to put on my tombstone is at least he tried. And I kind of feel like whether it's throwing a party or doing something unique and different, that instead of us being concerned whether we're gonna, you know, succeed, well, let's try it. And all of a sudden, out of there's something on your guard or Ben, there's something on your guard. One guy just approached me about, you know, serving uh people that are very high net worth uh givers and that some people don't give at all, but they have incredible resources. Again, that's maybe not something on my heart, but we're gonna develop that with him and say what could that look like? And when you have a bar that, hey, you know, if three people show up, that's success because we got started. Some young people wanted to do, uh, Aaron Brockett from Traders Point came and talked, and he talked about the importance of bonfires, of just sitting around the bonfire and talking. Well, now we got a group of guys that there's six or seven of them. They're gonna host bonfires. Well, again, it's nothing that you know, Greg and I were particularly, you know, driven to do. So I guess that's the excitement part of it, is that hopefully we're stirring some people to say, yeah, I can I can't do everything, but I can do something.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

The most amazing testimonials we get are those guys that come and say, this isn't a typical networking event. This is something that inspires me to give. Because when I'm at a networking event, it's about what can I extract? You know, another connection. And we aren't against that. We need, you know, that's good, but we're the opposite of that. We're we're almost the anti-network network for guys that are too busy, that think they're too busy, but to see generosity of time, talent, and treasure in action. And that's why when people say, How do I get involved? Don and I say, What's your passion? And how can we support you with what your passion? They see us modeling that kind of generosity. And all of a sudden, it's like, first of all, well, I gotta own this and I gotta lead. And secondly, oh, I can give. I just don't have to be here to take. And so we're trying to create a movement of makers and not takers.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

What a you mentioned organization building versus an organization versus a movement. And what I find interesting is I think the temptation, and maybe even from us as businessmen, is that you want to like it's so tempting, you know, businessmen, or because we're, you know, we're American. I don't know. Like the temptation is that we want to build organizations. We want to turn it into a thing. It seems like you guys were very intentional to say, no, we that's not what we want. We want this to be a movement instead of things coming in. It's almost like things are boomeranging. They come in, but then they go out. What can you explain a little bit about that?

Movement Over Organization

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Well, Ron Blue, um, who started Blue and Company and Ronald Blue Trust, uh, has become a good friend. Uh, I've got a second home down by Bloomington. He lives in Bloomington. And he uh had given us good counsel of saying, don't make it a an organization. That's things are coming from the top. We're dictating, you know, what goes down. He started in Kingdom Advisors, and with Kingdom Advisors, there's, I don't know, 4,000 of them or something now. And um so he was kind of our coach in terms of just this council of uh trying not to make an organization but making it a movement. And Bob Buford, uh, in his work with Halftime, he always said, you know, it's uh locally in terms of making an impact, uh, over time, right? That we can't, it's not a one-shot thing with others. And most things in business, you know, we can talk about entrepreneurship, but there's very few Lone Rangers. There's no, you know, it's Ben and Todd, right? It's not just Ben. It's you know, Don and Gary in the automobile business. So we're trying to to model or at least encourage folk, whatever you're doing, take somebody with you. Um, we're trying to do things with uh, we're trying to say, okay, what's the problem that we're trying to solve? Well, some is loneliness, and and we're lonely. And you look at the statistics on loneliness with Americans, with the with men, it has gone up like 300% in the last decade or something. Percentage of men that say they, you know, how many have a close friend or how many friends you have. And I mean, it's not good. Um, someone was talking about that, you know, it used to be X number of years ago. You'd say, hey, I'd go to Ben, hey, you want to get your wife and let's go to a movie. And you maybe go once or twice a month or something. Now people stay in their own homes and watch the equivalent of nine movies a week through streaming. So all of a sudden, you're out of community, right? You're not in relationship. Um of the the itch, I guess, that I have, and I think it's like anything when you have adversity, that there's always a silver lining. And I was uh I went to work in Cincinnati and started a heavy-duty truck dealership uh over there selling Kimmer Tangle trucks. I know literally everybody on the north side of Indy. Um, but me in Greenwood, I probably don't know anyone. I I moved to Cincinnati, but I didn't know anybody to even call for a cup of coffee. And I remember what it was like to be a stranger. And I remember it was like that there were some local guys and girls, and we were friends, and I thought we were great friends. But then there were certain parties that I just never got an invite to because I hadn't gone to Indian Hill uh high school, or I hadn't gone to um, and I remember it wasn't a huge, sharp pain, but it was also kind of it was an unpleasant feeling. And I think that's one of the things that we're trying to do is to to make it so that people can access the city, they're moving from other places. There's so much more mobility than there was when Greg and I were growing up. Um, and so that people don't feel like strangers and that can, you know, really develop deeper relationships much quicker.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Ben, to answer your question too, I think Don and I, of all people, are very pro-organization and pro-institutional, but not for Citizen Seven. We're a movement that builds men that will lead their families, that will build their businesses and create businesses that will do those things that need to be caught by institutions that will have sustaining impact and influence. We are all about that. But we believe the secret sauce is not creating an institution to do that for all the things, the negative things that I think accompany that. The downsides, we're able to be free to incubate others, and I think it fosters this sense of generosity and giving to others' ventures that really brings the power to what the Citizen Seven Movement is about.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Um, so and I'll throw this question back to you, Greg, too. Um you guys also mentioned just partnership in general, and Don mentioned don't go

Why Their Partnership Works

SPEAKER_00 32:47

alone. But Greg, I want to ask you guys, what what is your guys' partnership like? What is your what does that look like between you two? Of you know, where where is Greg? Where are you strong for the team that offsets of maybe a weakness of Don? And obviously, we don't need to go into strengths and weaknesses, but what makes you guys more or less like a really, a really powerful team in this environment? And clearly you are like what you guys are doing uh is making a difference. So what what what makes the partnership work?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Well, I think one, and I don't say this out of pride or arrogance, but Don alluded to the fact that he knows everybody on the north side of Indy. Well, you know, lo and behold, Don will attest to this. I know people he doesn't know. So our Rolodexes are very complementary. I know tons of people too, but they are not the same people that Don knows. So the power of fine Rolodex and what are what may be very weak links in in our constellation, not necessarily strong friendships, but just knowledge of people and connections, that forms such a beautiful Rolodex that we can leverage and feel obligated to steward well.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

You know, I think the other thing uh would maybe go along with that is I'm sure you guys have heard of the book Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, kind of one of the granddaddies of uh self-help, et cetera. And you know, Andrew Carnegie paid Napoleon Hill to study science of success. One of the things that he uh his one of his principles was out of every adversity, there's a seed of equivalent or greater benefit. And Greg has an adversity with with his wife's significant health challenges um that really kind of limits his traveling, doing a lot of things. Well, Greg has channeled that adversity into his investment in the lives of of a lot of men and with Praxis and with Polk stables and some things that I can't, I'm not as granular. Um and he just lays himself out there, but he also is a wordsmith, you know, he's much more of an intellectual. I would like to take something and say, hey, Greg, here you go. You know, you write it, you do it. Um he also has a certain conviction about some things that I could kind of take or leave. And and he has a backbone on some things that that I thought, I mean, in other words, I might have given up on quicker. And with his um, he he he just compliments me in that regard. He goes to a downtown church, um, you know, is uh at Redeemer. I'm at second press. Uh, we have again complimentary uh Rolodexes or uh contact lists, uh, but not the same. Um and Greg has such a credible respect from like the Oaks Academy world and the people that he got to know through uh being one of the founders of that. Um so, and to be honest with you, I wouldn't do any of this uh if I wasn't doing it with Greg. I mean, it kind of breaks me up a little bit. In other words, it just wouldn't be any fun. And Greg and I are having a good time. Yeah. I mean, we have a lot of fun with this.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Uh I don't even golf well. Don and I golf together, which Don brings such a beautiful, uh fun, challenging, you know. I'm lax with time, for example. I love the way we call Don jokingly the sergeant at arms because he keeps us on track, you know. That mindset, I'm I'm a hippie from California, you know. And so our our gifts, I wouldn't do, I couldn't do this. Not only wouldn't, but couldn't do this without Don Palmer in particular. Not we have other mutual friends. I could not be doing Citizen with any of them except with Dear Don. And we will love each other till the day we die because of just this beautiful, unique friendship we have.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

Dear Don, the sergeant at arms. Yeah, Greg, you uh you you said a word, rollodex. Uh it's a synonym for network. And my son's in college, and I told him before he went, I said, son, you have two jobs, and it's pretty equal 50-50. The first part is to pass, not get thrown out, you know, learn something new. Not expecting to get straight A's, but learn something new. But I said, your equal other 50% of your job at college is to build your Rolodex. And he said, Absolutely, dad, no problem. I'll do that. Just one question. What's that, son? Dad, what's a Rolodex? So wait, we have to change our words because they don't work anymore with some people, but it's like a landline or you know, the paper newspaper, yeah.

Making New Friends As You Age

SPEAKER_04 38:10

To that point, network is you talk about the shared networks, the shared Rolodex. Something I've observed, and I love watching older people throughout my whole life to see the what they've done well, what they maybe have have had challenges at. But one singular thing that is almost happens to everybody, particularly men, is that there's nothing naturally that widens your network over time. Everything narrows it. Yeah, so you retire, your network begins to narrow. You your kids leave the high school and your and your network begins to narrow. You might move to a new city. You mentioned that, Don, going to Cincinnati, your network narrows. You get closer to the end of your life, your friends begin passing away. What I have seen one or two people do, it's not many, it's like just a few, is in each section of their 70s, their 80s, their 90s, and even into a hundred, these people make new friends. Okay. Do you have any commentary on making new friends in the seasons of your life as you progress through this world? Totally.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

How do you do it? I think that number one, you know, we we used EOS, entrepreneurial operating system, uh, most recently, to say, hey, you know, we we uh profess this in our companies. What are we doing with Citizen Sevens in terms of developing rocks and processes, et cetera? But the problem with that, Greg and I would both agree on this, with male friendships is everybody's waiting for someone else to call. And, you know, if you want to be a mentor, hey, well, yeah, I'm available, but I'm, you know, nobody's nobody's asked me. You've got to, in terms of friendships, you've got to be the person that makes the first move. I just reached out to a guy uh that was uh uh inner city pastor that whose name came up. Well, I didn't wait for someone else's introduction. We we shared 40 or 50 mutual contacts on LinkedIn. Well, all of a sudden, you know, we're uh we're friends. We do a Lake Lemon retreat where we have about 35 men. Uh we try to have about 40 percent um black or brown and 60 percent on Caucasian. And um and we just spend 24 hours together. Some of it is just can you give up time? Can you just abide with someone? But the other thing is, is it happen it can happen as you get older, you lose your curiosity. So if I'm not curious about Todd and I I'm I'm curious about that son of yours and what he's studying, and what what what motivates him and what are your challenges as a father? So being I was talking with a friend of mine and he played golf with a Fortune 500 CEO and a very, very prominent comp company you would all know. And he said in the entire round, the guy never asked him one question about himself. Well, you know, uh David Brooks wrote a book called How to Know a Person and phenomenal book. But I think, in terms of, to me, in terms of friendship, um is taking it, uh making the first move, and then really being curious. How many people are like great listeners, or people are moving so fast, or they're texting things, and nobody's saying how well tell me a little more about that son of yours, Todd. And we get done, and you go, you know what, that Don, he's an interesting person. You know, I might not have told you a lot about me, but I'm interesting because I'm interested in you. But I think from a friendship standpoint, um you know, I I'm you know a guy of faith. I I believe that it should be on your prayer list of uh Lord direct me to to uh friendships that are meaningful and that are uplifting. Um and then when those things happen, are you you're you're more aware, hey, I prayed that, I asked for that. Now all of a sudden someone comes into your life and you go, maybe this is the good Lord saying I should uh pursue that. So um that's probably a long-winded answer to developing friendships, but I personally have benefited greatly by having uh friends 10 years older than me. There's things that I'm 71 that go, you know, I never knew that this happened when you got older with your body or your mind or anything else. Um, and then to have, you know, I met with two guys, one guy was 50 today, and the other guy was uh 36. Um fascinating to find out, you know, what was going on in their life, what they're doing as uh father, but we're friends because we were genuinely interested in each other's life.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

And Todd, let me give you one concrete example about how to grow your network, your friendships. Uh in 1997, I met a guy, long story, who knew Don, but I didn't know Don real well. But he and I Developed a deep friendship. His name is Don Fisher. We co-founded the Oaks Academy together. And I had no clue that Don was also doing business with Don Palmer, who I was just, I didn't have a tight friendship with at that time. So not only did Don and Fisher and I get to be friends, and Don Palmer and I got to be friends, but now because of our mutual yet parallel, not interdependent, but parallel friendships, a threesome now all of a sudden becomes more than just one plus one plus one. So to answer your question, if you keep building friends, and Don, I will admit, is 10 years older than me because his birthday's wait a minute. Don Fisher, not not Palmer. Don Fisher's birthday. Frank and I are months, not years. That's right. But the point is that you as you build friendships, you don't know what's going to happen. That's even multiplicative apart from just building individual friendships in your role decks. And that's a real beautiful example I treasure because that has strengthened Palmer in my relationship, knowing that Don Fisher is a dear friend of ours and we walk together on mission in different missions.

SPEAKER_04 45:11

Well, Don Fisher is a very uh persuasive guy. He persuaded me to read the largest book I've ever read in my life called The Prize about the oil. And Ben remembers that. We were at lunch at the embassy suites over on Michigan Road. And Don says, Well, if you want to know how the world works, read this book. And I thought, well, I want to know how the world works. And I got the book in the mail, and I thought, oh man, what have I signed up for?

SPEAKER_05 45:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah, we got a lot of good stories about Don Fisher. I'll never forget he he would he was always willing to go to lunch with us. And uh I always felt like, and this is right after college, I always felt like I had to go home and take a nap after we had lunch.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

He's a wild man. Ethan got to be a good salesman. His dad would take he and his twin brother Ron down to Pulp Sanitary Milk Company, our Pope Stables building, and sell shoes on Saturdays. And that's before Don as a kid got to learn how to sell retail to the guys coming out of the plant there.

SPEAKER_04 46:11

Interesting.

A Report Card On Men Today

SPEAKER_04 46:13

Hey guys, um, you say you're connected with 1400 people, at least on email. I know you're not personally connected with 1,400 people, but you do have a pulse on a significant subset of the men in Indianapolis. Can you put your professor andor teacher hat on, sharpen your pencil, and give us a report card? I'll let you define the subjects, if you will, and give us a grade of A, B, C, D, and F on maybe three or four subjects or topics that you see and how we're doing as men in Indianapolis.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

So this is as a man in Indianapolis, giving that grade? Okay.

SPEAKER_04 46:58

So p pick your topics, whether it's how we're doing is leading our families or leading our businesses or connecting with our churches. You pick the topics and give us a grade as to how you think overall the men in the city are doing.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

I think uh one grade I would give is I'm seeing more and more men amongst our 1400. Uh they're emerging out of more broken families. They may be two parent families, but there's more uh uh honest brokenness that they're coming back into relationships with that's either uh causing chaos or consternation or preventing them from moving into what what they believe God's calling them. And so from a from a cultural perspective, I lament some of how we're forming our men. Um it's it's one, it's apparent obviously apparent in fatherless families, and we are getting men kind of from from that uh background, which is beautiful because we welcome, we want to be the father or welcome those who don't have fathers. But I've just seen more of that and it presents itself on a grade wise in mental uh health, in ability to think uh about long term, have that long game in mind. It's more short-term, fix it right now versus that long game. So I'm lamenting some of those issues uh that lead to then withdrawal, that lead to uh the temptations with porn and alcohol and drugs, whatever it is. So that's one grade I give our young men that I lament over and uh helps motivate me to keep going with what I'm doing to bring them into and myself into greater flourishing in the midst of those challenges.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

I would say um I am very encouraged by this would be the Gen Z, the 20s, um on their interest in serving and also interested in faith and church. So I would I would give a a B. Um, we started to think of great guys under 35. I've never seen guys, and there were 23 people that showed up for a planning session in the middle of the inner city, and these guys are just going crazy, and they've already got a nine-month agenda, and they're inviting all their friends. And so I just went to a thing last night called Night with the Sun, and the guy, uh Stuart Reemer, and he's a senior at uh uh IU in the Kelly School, and he's a finance and real estate major. He raised $225,000 as a as a college senior for a knight uh with I think it's Cliff Knightley, is his name, maybe, um, who's kind of an apologetic, and then they had a uh lead singer from LV worship. I thought, I mean, they ran in Assembly Hall for $100,000. And here's a guy that's still taking classes and finals, and he's gonna ride on little five. So um that fervor, that uh spirit in this town, uh very high grade. I think I would give uh a low grade, probably a C minus, to our connection of folk with means and without means. I think that the way our suburbs are set up, um the least of these uh folk that are uh inner city high school kids being connected with people that are professionals or people in the suburbs having a heart for um the what the the overlooked and the disenfranchised in our city, I think there's a huge um gap there.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

I would uh give uh uh to Don piggybacking on Don's thing about the the B. I think with the advent of new technology and enthusiasm about using AI and growing businesses and people being open, not to just doing it the same old way, but you know, like through what we're doing with praxis is leading men and women into a redemptive framework for their enterprise. I see a hunger for doing things differently that leads not to this polarization or these differences that Don just alluded to, but leads to flourishing for all. It's hard work to think about a business that's profitable, but that provides a move beyond just doing the beautiful ethical work that a business should do, but move towards something that not only brings financial value to all shareholders and stakeholders, but also brings them more healing, uh more relational uh capital and uh ultimately and all part of spiritual capital. So I see a I I'm really encouraged by these men and women who are laying it all out there to do business differently that way.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

Thank you guys. Appreciate

Next Two Years And Passing The Baton

SPEAKER_04 52:27

it.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

What what are you guys uh looking out for the next couple of years? What are you guys most excited about on the horizon for Citizen Seven and for the men of the city?

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Uh one is for Don and I, we're you know, Don is he's not 80, but he's a year and a half older than me, but to see uh a whole cadre of men really own this this movement. And in two years, Don and I would love to be to see this next generation of guys really saying, This is bringing not me value, but it's bringing our city, it's bringing my family value, it's bringing uh my church, my business, my community value. I want to have my share of this. I want to lead this. That would please us to no end. And that's truly an aspiration. If we don't see that happen in two years, uh Ben, I would feel like, man, did we fail uh with respect to being able to sustainably drive this movement forward?

SPEAKER_02 53:31

Yeah, I I would agree with I I think some of the blame comes up from our duration, uh, that we haven't handed the baton. We have we've held on to board seats, we're held on to um control. I don't know, power is the right word, but we haven't believed in the young people to say, hey, you're as good as this as me. And I didn't have no idea what I was doing to start with, go for it. Um so so I I'm hopeful that we can really just empower people to to act. Um and we or do nothing. You know, I think sometimes we we give everyone a guilt trip. You need to do one more thing. And I know you guys have families and and again, I know Todd or Ben, you've got you know several kids, but you know, it's it's a busy life to have a hard-driving career, sometimes a wife that works, kids. And in many instances, people are not creating not to do less. And we need to give blessed people to say, what is it that on your priorities? Give me your four priorities of your time. Tell me what the fourth is, and give me a darn good reason why that should still be on your calendar. Um, so I think I would be encouraged if we had more um intergenerational friendships where we could talk about somebody who could lay out, hey, here's the challenge I'm having as a young dad or as uh um I now have somebody in college, and what's it look like to be a good dad to somebody in college? Um so I think that that would be really encouraging. Um, we're trying to create, you know, this, you know, if you and I wanted to do something good, and I looked to you and said, Todd, I uh have any time. I really don't have any time. You say, have I? I really don't have any time either. But we've hired administrators and some part-time people to be the the, you know, kind of the feat of this thing. So we could go to something and say, you know, that we could easily pull that off because we've got this admin. So, you know, I my hope would be to figure out how SISISIN 7 is more sustainable. We've been um we haven't really asked, we've had founders, we really haven't asked for money. Um so that would be encouraging to figure out a model that works, and we don't have all the answers. Um, but to see just different people um get really turned on, whether it's mission trips um or whether it's finding something in the city that they really care about. Uh, I'm I'm a big believer, I don't know that you need to go join another board. Sometimes it's a waste of time because uh your gifts aren't administrative. So to be able to say, you know what, I'm gonna be a better neighbor, and who is my neighbor? And you got a you know, a widow sitting next to you, and you just bring her a meal or you invite somebody over. So so to me, some of those little acts of service that are that are kindness, that are grace and mercy, if those things are happening more often, kind of is the iron sharpens iron, so does one man's countenance sharpen that of another. If those things are happening, hey, uh I want to read you real quick just a um a note that I got from somebody two years ago. I won't say what friend of a mine it is, but I think as it as we talk about relationships, there's a lot of times where I really don't, I really didn't know that my friendship with you even mattered. I mean, we all have friends, we all have, you know, LinkedIn friends, and hey, Ben's a good buddy of mine. And but but do I really matter when I really call him at two in the morning if I had a flat tire? And this was written by a guy that many of you would know. But I'll just do it as an example of, you know, as you if you were going to die tomorrow and and you're thinking of what friends you're grateful for, well, do they know, you know, that you are, that they matter to you? It says, Don, for many years I've tried to give up things for Lent: beer, wine, bad words. This year I've taken a different approach, blatantly stole from a common friend. I'm writing a note to someone I respect and care about. I respect and care about you. When I think about our great friendship, it all starts with a common love for our Lord. Um, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it says, uh, we've shared some hard times together in business and have overcome them. I've always appreciated your words of encouragement. Um, but my point is on some of the friends that you do have, to be more explicit, I'm saying, you know, what makes life really good is having a friend like you. And I just want you to know that. I think that can change the whole tenor of a friendship.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

100%. I do want to give a shout out to the National Christian Foundation of Indiana. We would not be here weren't for its support. Uh, would they have a fund set up for us so people can donate uh charitable dollars to that? So when we have raised funds, uh it's gone to them. And they've been such a blessed partner uh to that. So I would hope uh that two years from now is that they would still be willing to partner with us in this journey because they've been instrumental here. And the second uh thing I think about two years out is uh, for example, we have some guys in Lafayette, Indiana now, 10 guys meeting together as Citizen Seven. And we've created a branding nomenclature that allows people to put in their different cities into the block that we've created. Uh, we, of course, with Citizen 7 Indy, which is Metro, you know, Indianapolis, uh, they're starting to meet. And that's just another small group. They have 10 guys that dawn. I would love to see these small groups that we talked about earlier start to really take off. And I would hope in two years, that would be an indicator of the depth, not just the breadth that we've experienced, but the depth to which this movement is contributing to the richness of their lives.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

One thing that I was gonna is interesting because it comes on the heels of something that you just

Saying Yes With Healthy No’s

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

said. But uh, one thing I've picked up from both of you, not just from our conversation today, but something that I've just noticed when you guys uh speak or when you just engage with others. Um it seems that you guys find joy in saying yes, meaning someone comes with this idea, and you're you're not critical of the idea or ask a bunch of questions about the idea, but you say, yeah, and empowered, how can we help? Um, and so it seems like you find joy in saying yes, but also seems like maybe alongside of saying yes, Donnie even mentioned just some questions about saying, okay, well, what are what are some things that you're saying no to? Right. How how do you guys can you can you uh explain maybe a little bit of that? Or what am I seeing when I see that you guys seem to find joy in saying yes? Or and how do you help people say no?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Well, Ben, I'm addicted to saying yes, and Don's been my great friend saying great no for this. I really respect and love it. And that's brought me joy because he knows that we can't do everything without it. But there is joy. I I am burdened that we are Indiana no place. There's so many no's out there in our culture, no, no, no. And I would love to see Indiana grow place from no to grow. So that's my bent. And for me, that brings me great joy when I'm allowed to do that within within constraint. You know, to your point, you have to say no to some things too. But there is great joy in being, I think, uh leaning towards the yes side.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

Um I think um, yeah, I uh I think that we need to encourage people if all of a sudden you're talking about something that you've thought about or is kind of on your heart, to not get somebody to go sort clothes someplace or do something, um, but to uh to have them go deeper on that and say, tell me more about that, and sometimes to understand more where did that come from? What why do you why do you care about X? And a lot of times there's a really cool story about that. Um so that I guess that would be, but I I'm an entrepreneur. I I've failed and I've succeeded. And, you know, I I sit on these advisory board companies, and everybody is iterating, right? Everybody has to see what how AI can help their productivity or be leaner or be more competitive. And then all of a sudden, you know, we get to whether it's faith or friendship or things, and we just park our brains at the door. I mean, so I teach, you know, I taught entrepreneurship for a number of years at Butler in the MBA program. And we're always talking about, you know, iterating most, you know, an MVB, a minimum viable product. And so, and I love to just say, hey, you know, let's not try to save the world. Let's just try to do one event. Let's try to get four people together. You know, when you start small and you go, hmm, there may be some traction here. Um, it's just fun for me to see uh new ideas and things that you think, wow, this is really like one guy uh came to us and he was 19 years at Lilly, and he has a company called Restoring Family. Um, the Restored Family, I guess it is in America. And he had a burden for people being better leaders, being better fathers, better husbands. And he had a curriculum that he wrote, and he goes around the country in some instances the world uh teaching this. And he just is doing it, you know, for this group, you know, eight people a couple of times a year. I mean, those kinds of things like in the people you talk to, you know, we get testimonials of that changed my marriage. That changed the way I related. Well, that is just super exciting to me. And that's why, you know, saying yes to things, uh, we want people to serve with their gifts. Um and and then also asking them, what do you need to say no to to say yes to this? I think as young, as young fathers, um, sometimes people want to do some things and many times may uh discourage them and say, well, let's talk about how you are as a dad, what kind of quality time just one-on-one you have with with one of your children. And all of a sudden they get pumped up more about, hey, that's what you're first called to is being the father and the husband, not you know, going out and uh, you know, picking up trash in the inner city or something. So um, so I I think it's a balance, and I think people appreciate empathy of knowing how busy lives are.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

Well, guys, this has been awesome. Um, thanks for joining us

Risks Taken And Unfinished Resolve

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

today. But before we end, we asked our guests two questions. Um, so I'll ask the first question, and Greg, we'll start with you. Um, what is a risk you have taken that has changed your life?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

I think moving to Indiana New York City is an unmarried guy. You know, that's the place to be, right? I'm from the West Coast. I thought the East Coast would be similar, really be a cool place. But God called me here. I knew nobody. I came by myself, came to eat by Lily, and I said I'm All in and I've been all in since 1982. And it's changed my life. Brought me my wife, brought Don Palmer in my life, Citizen Seven, This Beautiful City, you guys. It has changed my life. Just saying, okay, God. And in fact, my professors were steering me away from moving into the pharmaceutical industry. They were gearing me towards more an academic career out of graduate school. And I took that risk against their wishes, against advice. And uh it's changed my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

Don?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

Yeah, if I have to be really honest, there's a lot of risks I've taken. Um but I think Mary and my wife uh were gonna celebrate our 40th wedding anniversary. And I was single through my 30s and I mean through my 20s. Um so just to take that leap, um, I look at I got three kids and seven grandkids. Um so I think that was huge for me. I got my MBA at Xavier at night, uh, was in Cincinnati. Uh my father was buying a bankrupt uh car dealership, and the hours weren't great, the pay wasn't great, but I had an opportunity to um to own it on a long-term basis. Uh so taking that risk of saying, hey, I'm just gonna put all my uh chips with my uh family business and hope that it works out. Jimmy Carter era, 18% interest on our plan inventory. Chrysler is terrible shape, borrowing money, you name it. Consumer rates were 13%. So having that that risk of, hey, I'm burning my bridges. I I I had to succeed because the options weren't good. Uh nobody really wanted a guy who worked for a family business and was an automobile business that wasn't like who the you know Fortune 500 were hiring. So taking that risk uh gave me the opportunity to to be an equity owner and be able to run my own show.

unknown 1:08:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:17

I think a lot of that resonates with Ben and I. You see that little ship in the background, and we use that term burn the ships quite often. But uh there is no going back. There is no going back. Many of us are very undiversified when it comes to our business interests, and you just go all in. So you guys talked about the power of the combined Rolodex and how that expanded your own network and your ability to meet and connect with people. And Don, you said everyone is waiting for someone else to call. Um, almost puts chills down my back because it's so right. And when you realize that some days you are that person that you need to get out of that box and say that I'm gonna be the one to call. And then you also said, Are you curious? Are you genuinely interested in other people's lives? And the truth is, sometimes we're not. But we've got to put ourselves in a posture where we are because I think that's where we we do stay young, we stay vital and we say stay relevant and we stay productive. So the the second and final question, and Greg, I'll start with you too, is with that kind of as a backdrop, what is left yet unfinished, Greg, that you have the resolve to complete?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

Well, this is an interesting time to ask me. I just turned 70 and I could have died and gone to heaven because Don was in on a surprise 70th birthday party for me on the top of the skyline club. Now, Don couldn't be there personally, but he sent me a very poignant uh video. I that was the epitome of a bucket list. You know, Don mentioned David Brooks, you know, he wrote the the Two Mountains book, you know, the eulogy virtues versus the resume virtues. And that party symbolized, and I without me knowing it, but and can't put words to it, I'm still overwhelmed by it. But that people said, Greg, that was almost like a funeral. I don't know, but the birthday part of being a funeral. But in the best way, because people don't get to hear that while they're alive, they hear some stuff after they've died. And so that was my bucket list right there. Well, yeah, I really could have said, yeah, but you know, I still want to love my wife and family, love Don, do this, but I I don't care about uh going to Ireland. I've never been to Ireland, my homeland or Antarctica. I hope I don't. My son's promised me a trip to our Enus homeland and the Azure Islands off the coast of Portugal. But if that doesn't happen, that's okay because I've sat, I've I've been to this at least one mountaintop. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:55

Don? I think the analogy of trying to grow fruit on other people's trees. Um I asked a friend, Fred Smith, who started the gathering and was Bob Buford's best friend, uh, started leadership network, whether he had a a word for the year. He says, No, I have a symbol. Um, and he showed me a he's 78, had a vow from the oil fields and said, Hey, my job is to channel people's energy um and not be the energy. And so for me, um my symbol is a watering can. Um and I really think that you know, the the scripture that talks about um I plan it Apollo watereth and God can increase. Um, so for me, when I really look at it, is you've now created kind of a scorecard for me on a monthly basis of how well I'm doing as a husband, how well I'm doing as a father to my adult children, how well I'm doing as a grand grandfather. And so the legacy I leave won't be financial, though I still have some things to work out there. But how do I um create the right legacy uh within my family? Um that when I get hit by a bus unexpectedly say, you know, it's all good. Everything's finished. Yeah. Amen. Awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:23

Well, gentlemen, thanks for joining us today. Thank you for the work that you're doing uh for our city, but ultimately, thank you for the work you're doing to uh to build men. Um it's it's really important work, and we're really thankful that you guys have uh struck the match on that. And even we're thankful that you have the vision of of passing that that match, if you will, to others. Uh that's uh it's it's wonderful leadership. But I just want to thank you guys. Um, also just want to thank our guests for joining us for another episode of Risk and Resolve. We will catch you next time.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to Risk and Resolve.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:06

See you next time.